becky: please join me inwelcoming to google new york louisa shafia. louisa shafia: thanks becky. jaci badzin: so your bookopens with a really great introduction to yourhistory and your heritage. can you start by telling us abit about your personal story and your connectionwith persian food? louisa shafia: sure,well, my dad is from iran. he grew up in a town calledqazvin, which i'm not
saying in a nearlyguttural enough way. it's really qazvin. and then he moved totehran as a teenager, and then he came tothe us to philadelphia, to be exact, to finishhis medical degree. so he came from alarge muslim family, and in philly he met my mom, whois an american ashkenazi jew. jaci badzin: very interesting. louisa shafia: and they fellin love and got married.
and so i grew up with avery diverse household in philadelphia, andas most iranian men, my dad wasn't doinga ton of cooking, but my mom wanted to makethe dishes of his homeland that he loved so shereally taught herself how to make persian dishes. and so maybe once everyfew weeks on a sunday my mom would startthe long, slow process of making a bigpersian feast for us.
and my dad would help. i've got to give him credit. he would help. these flavors we're kindof my every day flavors. they were just part of my world. it wasn't until i wasan adult and really exploring all differentkinds of culinary traditions that i kind of realizedthis awesome food heritage that i have.
jaci badzin: did you grewup cooking with your mom or was it something youexplored later on in life? how did you find thatinterest in cooking? louisa shafia: yes, iwas recruited by my mom around age five-- no joke, tohelp prepare for dinner parties and gatherings thatshe would have. my mom loves to entertain, andshe's an amazing cook herself. i'm sure that's where i gotthe bug to love to cook. and she would haveus, my sister and i,
prepare crudites plattersand very simple desserts and omelets. and so i just grew upfeeling very comfortable experimenting withfood, so that's for sure where it comes from. jaci badzin: that'sso interesting. and this is your secondcookbook that's out, and you've also writtennumerous articles for publications, "food 52,"the "wall street journal."
how did you get interestedin writing about food? was that something thatwas also from a young age or was it something that youfound when you were older? louisa shafia: ireally got into writing after i had my cateringcompany for a couple of years. i had a catering companycalled lucid food that was all about sustainablecatering, really bringing the world of eco-friendlythinking and locavore approach to eating to theworld of fine-dining,
doing something more interestingthan pigs in blankets at nice corporate events. and people got reallyexcited that you could have these beautiful,elegant hors d'oeuvres that were all sourced fromthe farmer's market, and everything was beingcomposted along the way. and no one was really doingit in new york at that time, and people were so curiousand excited by this because they hadn't really comeacross it before that that's
when i got inspired to writemy first cookbook, which is "seasonal cookingand eco-friendly tips for the kitchen."and i just kind of wanted to take all that experience thati got with my catering company, and all those things ishared and share them with a biggeraudience in a book. jaci badzin: so this bookis called, the new book, is called "the newpersian kitchen." what is your definition ofthe new persian kitchen?
louisa shafia: well, thenew persian kitchen-- well, i should say incontext, persian cooking has a very differenttimeline than say, american cooking oreven european cooking. persian cooking goes backliterally thousands of years. so at the ruins of persepolis,which was the ancient ritual capital of thepersian empire, what is now modern day iran, themakings of fesenjoon stew, which is one of the most iconicstews eaten today in iran.
it's made from ground walnutsand pomegranate molasses. all the makings of that werefound written on stone tablets at persepolis. so even back then, theywere using pomegranates. they were using walnuts. they were using parsley. they were using garlic. so when you say thenew persian kitchen, it's taking somethingthat's very ancient
and kind of riffing on it. so i'm sort of doing atake on persian food that's very much inspired bythis ancient cuisine, by the very sensuousingredients, like saffron and rose water andsumac, and filtering it through my own veryhealthy way of eating. so putting in whole grains,instead of white rice. cutting back on sugar, reallytrying to put the emphasis back on fresh fruits andvegetables, which really
are the foundationof persian food. jaci badzin: so the inspirationfor this cookbook would be, was it founded morein your heritage? was it wanting to expressyour new techniques and connect themback with your roots? where did this inspirationcome from to write this book? louisa shafia: well, i enteredthe professional culinary world with a very strong focuson healthy cooking. in fact, i was vegan when istarted my career as a chef.
jaci badzin: that's interesting. louisa shafia: yes, and iwent to a very healthy cooking school. it's called the naturalgourmet institute. it's here in new york, andi was vegan at the time. i entered-- all of myteachers at the school were middle-aged women, andthey all told me being vegan was the worst thing icould do for my health. so i left cookingschool no longer vegan,
and after i finished, imoved to san francisco to cook at this awesome veganrestaurant called millennium. and i have to sayone of my first meals in san franciscowas at luna park, and i had fish for thefirst time in a few years. i'm bringing that up becauseyou said you used to work there. jaci badzin: that's howi got my start at google, as a hostess at luna park, incase you guys are wondering. louisa shafia: great restaurant.
jaci badzin: it'sa great restaurant. still open, too. louisa shafia:still going strong. yeah, i started cookingat millennium, loved it. was so inspired by allthe different ingredients we were using. in san francisco at thetime, that was 2001. everyone was already deeplyinto the locavore thing, and we had farmers coming tothe back door of the restaurant
dropping off foragedmushrooms and chilies and all kinds of cool things. so one day, my chef askedme if i would come up with a new dish for the menu. and we were already using ahuge diversity of ingredients, korean things, japanese,african, and my first thought was what can i do thatno one's done here yet? and i knew nobody haddone persian food. i just knew it,because there's not
a lot of persians or persianrestaurants in the bay area. and so i thought, ithink i'll try fesenjoon, which is pomegranate andwalnut stew usually made with either turkey orchicken or sometimes, duck. and i did a vegan version of it. the ingredients are magical. that combination of the bitterwalnuts and the tart and sweet pomegranate, that'sall you need. and it almost doesn't matterif there's meat in it or not,
it's just so good. so i didn't know how to cookwith any persian ingredients at that time. it was a huge processof discovery for me. and i found somedifferent versions of recipes for fesenjoon, andi muddled my way through it, and came up with something. everyone tasted it, andsaid, whoa, what is this? this is so great.
it's sweet, and it's tart, andits rich, and it's beautiful. i added some gratedred beets to the dish to make it a beautifuldeep red color. and it went on the menu,and everyone liked it. and that was really thestart of me discovering this amazing food heritagethat i had grown up with but i'd neverbeen aware of. jaci badzin: so cool. do you find that there's anopening within vegan style
food for more persian cooking? it feels like it'dbe a pretty good fit. i mean, yes, there's theyogurt, and there's the meat, but do you think thatthere is an opportunity to expand that veganlifestyle with more immersion of persianfood in the ingredients? do you think there's-- louisa shafia: absolutely. persian food is allabout the flavors.
and traditionally, meatwas used to just boost the flavor of things. it never had a starring role. it's only kind of nowthat meat is so much more accessible and cheap thatyou'll see these huge kabob fests and super meaty stews. but traditionally, meatwas just a small element, and you can do these dishescompletely without meat. if you're doing-- there'sall these classic stews,
like fesenjoon,there's bademjoon, which is eggplantand tomato stew. there's ghormehsabzi, which is herbs. it's all green herbs. when it's finished it's thisbeautiful vibrant green color. and it's reallyflavored with something called dried limes, whichis a very particular persian ingredient. and it's kind oflike lime times 12,
because you cookwith the whole lime. jaci badzin: i readthat in your book, and was like, whatis this dried lime? i want to try it. louisa shafia: oh,they're so good. they're super sweet and kindof bitter at the same time. but it's all about thoseflavors so you really don't need the meat. and in my cookbook, i tryand give vegetarian or even
a vegan version of allof the meat dishes, because the wholepoint is to make use of the fruitsand vegetables. and here, i want to pointout that iran always had an abundance of freshfruits and vegetables and herbs, verymuch unlike a lot of other parts ofthe middle east. but iran has atemperate climate. it has four seasons.
it's surrounded by twomountain ranges that are covered with snowthroughout the whole year, which most people, i'm sure, thinkof iran as a big desert. but it's not. there's marshy areas andmeadows and mountain ranges and very, verydiverse geography. but the ancientiranians figured out a way to bring the meltedsnow water from the mountains into vast desert areas andhave these lush gardens growing
in the desert. jaci badzin: and theirrigation systems are something that'sknown historically, that they've beenable to develop these amazing lushgardens and it's depicted in books andstories and movies, and it's really fascinating. and i feel like that comesacross in your book really well through your writings,but also through the imagery
and through your emphasison herbs and on produce. and even taking thedifferent-- like the limes, which were fantastic. there's a bit aboutthe caramelized onions too that it just--it's so interesting how you take fresh ingredients,and you can just build and build and buildthese really amazing dishes. louisa shafia:yes, and thank you for bringing up thecaramelized onions.
caramelized onionsis something you see in many, manypersian dishes. it's often used as atopping for things, and that is a great way tobring a foundation of really deep, rich flavor into a dish,even if it doesn't have meat. so if you're trying to makethese dishes vegetarian, take the time to makesome really nice, slowly cookedcaramelized onions. they will fill in forthe flavor of meat
and really round out a dishin a very powerful way. it takes a little time. they can take about an hourto really do it the right way. you start on high heat withyour thinly sliced onions, then reduce the heat andjust let them cook down and cook down until they'rereally dark and just a fraction of their size. and they're sweetand rich and smokey. everything you want.
jaci badzin: so good. do we have caramelizedonions today in the cafe? i hope we do louisa shafia: i hope wedo after that description. so talking, again, there's theseamazing traditional ingredients and your culinary interestand personal interest in vegan food, the recipesin this book are really-- they are a mix oftraditional and innovative. and can you tell us a bit abouthow you created the recipes
in this book, and how thiscollection came together? louisa shafia: sure. well, it was kind of aprocess of discovery. i had originally wanted to goresearch this cookbook in iran, but i wasn't able to getthe documentation to go, and i was very sad about that. and then a friend ofmine said, why don't you just go to los angeles? and if you don'tknow, los angeles
has the biggest iranianpopulation outside of iran. and a lot of my extendediranian family is out there. i have at least 20family members out there. and i thought,that's a great idea, because i won't have to weara chador and cover my head, and i'll be able to get around. and i speak thelanguage, english. so i went out there and kind ofin my honor of being out there, we had all theseamazing family feasts.
it was so cool. these all day feasts. you get there at 12:00or 1:00 on a sunday, and you leave atmaybe 9:00 or 10:00. you've had aboutthree rounds of food, and you're just feeling superhappy and tons of black tea in between every meal. and from that, i got to see thefavorite dishes that everybody made, sholeh zard, the sweetrice pudding with saffron rice,
with dates, adas polo, allthese different dishes. so i got to see the onesmy family members really loved and i got to taste those. and i thought, ok, ireally like this one. i like that one. i'm going to try myown recipe for this. and then my relativestook the time to get in the kitchen with me. so i would come over forthese intense all day
cooking sessionswith my cousins, and they showed mereally step-by-step how they made some oftheir favorite dishes like rice with fava beansand dill, which is just a beautiful dish for anytime that stuff is in season. and so i reallylearned that way. and then being there,i was able to shop at all these persiangrocery stores because i had all the ingredientson hand like i had never
had in new york. so i could get rose petals,i could get date syrup, dried limes, barberries,anything i needed and just play around andexperiment in my kitchen. and so through thatprocess i kind of chose some of those classic dishesfrom the persian cannon. they kind of have a cannonof classic rice dishes, classic stews, classic desserts. so i took some ofthose and then i just
created some that wereinspired by-- like there's a chicken dish in the book. it's turmeric chickenwith sumac and line. and i really wanted to have-- jaci badzin: it'sfeatured today. louisa shafia: yes,is on today's menu. jaci badzin: it looks so good. louisa shafia: i can't waitto taste their version of it. but i wanted to make adish that encapsulated
all the flavorsof persian cooking but didn't take severalhours and only used a handful of ingredients. so you just season thechicken thighs or breasts with a little bit of turmericand salt, sear them in a pan, then add some waterand garlic and let it braise for 25 minutes. take it out, seasonwith some lime juice and some sumac powder, so you'vegot a lot of tartness in there.
you've got saltiness, you'vegot richness from the chicken. and it's reallywell-rounded and full so it tastes like you werecooking all day, but it's kind offor an americans modern tolerance ofhow much time you want to spend in the kitchen. jaci badzin: it's really-- oneof the other things i loved about this book is that it'sa book that's-- it so useful. it so just connects immediately.
there's so many recipesin there that you could make in a tinykitchen in manhattan. you can also make ina huge kitchen in la, and it's so approachable thati just kept flipping through and i was like, i wantto make this dish. no, i want to make this dish. it's really vibrantand really amazing. and the ingredientsthat you talk about too are so vast, fantastic,but possibly not the most--
some of the ingredients, whati thought was interesting, is that they may not befound in the form in the book of the recipes, butyou give instructions on how to make themor even sometimes substitutions, which ithought was a really helpful. if you had to suggest afew key ingredients to have in your house to cook from yourbook or to cook persian food, what would they be? louisa shafia: oh, ilove that question.
turmeric would be one. sumac, which is a littlepurple powder that comes from the sumacberries, not poison sumac, just edible sumac. they look completely different. two different plants. and it sort of serves thepurpose of lemon juice, but you don't need tohave a fresh lemon around. it's tart and kind of saltyand actually very high
in vitamin c. pomegranate molasses, which isjust pomegranate juice cooked down, again, tart and sweet. dried limes, whichmaybe they're not that easy to find in a store,but there's a lot of places you can order them online,and they keep forever. and i guess, dried mint, whichyou can throw into any dish and transform the flavor andmake it exotic and eastern just by adding that at the end.
jaci badzin:interesting, dried mint. i'm going to add that. louisa shafia: it'sspearmint, in particular. so it's not peppermint, andit's not just general mint, it's really spearmint thathas that real fullness and that real savory taste. jaci badzin: andthe difference too. i'm glad you clarified that. spearmint versus peppermint,that's really interesting.
in your book, it statesthat according to persian tradition foods can either heatyour body up or cool it down, and it's typicallyadvised that you keep these energiescarefully balanced. so with that in mind, canyou recommend a balanced meal according to persian tradition? so a classic balancedmeal is actually a kabob platter, whichis your kabobs, which are hot by nature.
meat is hot. you have your rice, which can bestudded with anything from nuts to dried fruit tomeat to fresh herbs. you have grilledtomatoes on there, and then you'realways going to have sumac sprinkled over therice, and that is cooling. and you're always goingto have a glass of doogh, which is a saltymint yogurt soda. it sounds weird, so delicious.
it's just yogurt with--i like to make it with sparkling water. you could make it with flat. put a little bit of driedmint in there, some salt, a little bit of garlic,and it is so good. and that is really,really cooling, and that's why youhave it with that meal. iranians have a veryspecific philosophy about healthy eatingthat, again, goes back
thousands of years, just likeayurvedic cooking and dietary rules. and just like traditionalchinese medicine, iranians have thistheory that goes back, and you always wantto stay balanced. if you get too much ofhot or too much of cold, you're going to get sick. your first cookbook,as you mentioned, was focused oneco-friendly food.
this book focuseson your heritage in more traditionalpersian elements. will the reader see anysimilarities between the two books or is it apretty different route from your first book? louisa shafia: there's a lot ofcommon ground between the two. it's funny, with the firstbook, i only had, i guess, a couple of chicken dishesand some fish dishes in there. it was really true tomy vegetarian heritage.
in this book, meat issuch of integral part of persian cooking. it's really one ofthe characteristics of all these classicpersian stews and rice, even if it's justa small amount. so i really wanted to be trueto that, so i debated a while. but i did end up including lamb,which is the meat that you'll find most often in iraniancooking, lots of chicken, a fair amount of fishand seafood dishes,
which they have all differentkinds of fish in iran. down by the persiangulf, there's one kind. up near the caspian sea,there's different kinds. so i did include those,and then, i really have an emphasis oncooking with whole grains, finding healthy alternativesto maybe less healthy ways of cooking. if you go to a persianrestaurant these days, you'll often find dishes thatare made with a lot of oil.
so i have suggestionsfor cutting down on oil and also usinghealthier cooking oils, like coconut oil,things like almond oil, using extra virgin olive oilfor garnishing at the end. so you can definitelytell that both books were written by a health nut. that's the common ground. jaci badzin: that's great. what was your favoritediscovery of writing this book?
your second cookbook,so you are familiar. you've written abook before, but what was your favorite discoveryof this particular journey? louisa shafia: gosh, imean there were so many little particular food thingsthat i discovered, just like the wholeingredient, dried mint. i loved discovering that. but i think the bigger thingfor me was the opportunity to really get to knowmy persian family
and get this opportunityto really be immersed in the culture like ihad never been growing up in philadelphia. and i think just reallyunderstanding that, and also understanding that iwas part of this sort of bigger tribe, if you will,and going out to la and looking around and seeingthat everybody looked like me. that was an amazing discoveryand a completely new feeling. so besides your cookbooks,what is a cookbook
that you would recommend,like a must-have cookbook that you would recommendfor people to have? louisa shafia: yes. just yesterday iwas looking at it. it's called "the legendarycuisine of persia" by a woman named margaretshaida, s-h-a-i-d-a. she was an english woman whomarried an iranian and lived in iran for decades. she's no longer alive,but her book is available,
and it taught me so much. and it's got allkinds of great stories about the folk traditionsthat are behind a lot of the specific dishes andthe role of religion in iran, and the role of geography,and how it really affected how eachpart of the country has a very differentregional cuisine. it's really writtenin a lyrical way. it's just beautiful, andshe put some things--
she's able to express somethings about persian cuisine and persian culture inways that just can't even be improved upon. jaci badzin: that's good. making a note of that one. so in this digitalage, technology is so ever present,we're at google. how do you see technologychanging or affecting the way that you approachtraditional foods
or cooking or sharingthe information about this richhistory through food? louisa shafia: well, i feellike now it's so easy with video to show how you would make adish that once was believed very, very complicated. like, for example,something like tadig, which is a traditionalpart of any persian meal. it's the crispy riceon the bottom of a pot, and it's golden andit's crisp and it
tastes like potato chips andpopcorn and fried chicken all in one. so if you tried to just describethat in words, it's so subtle, and there's so manydifferent little tips that you need to carry out toactually make it successfully. but with a video, there'sso many great instructional cooking videosout there now, you can show people exactly howthey can do it and learn how to do it likean expert at home.
jaci badzin: yeah,i definitely-- it's amazing to see how many--these days, how many people are learning to cook fromvideos, and people will find information online. i still have my-- ilove my cookbooks. i mean, i willkeep them forever, but it's interesting tosee how the two compliment each other too. it's like book tovideo, back to the book,
when you're cookingand moving around. and there issomething that's still so beautiful about having thatbook present in your kitchen as opposed to alaptop or your phone. you can't really hold yourphone and cook at the same time. so it's really-- i thinkthere's a beauty and essence in the cookbooks andespecially in yours. the photos arewonderful, and you can tell it's such aculturally rich book.
it's really amazing. louisa shafia: thank you. just one more thing onthat that i want to say. is also, withthings like twitter and just so muchsharing online, i can be talking with people iniran and getting recipe tips, and asking themhow they do things and getting animmediate response and having this dialogue that ireally wouldn't have otherwise.
it just makes us so muchcloser and makes the ability to share ideas really easy. jaci badzin: and tips,that's really interesting. so cool. i love that idea of like whenyou're cooking something that's historically inheritedfrom a different country, a different land,and using technology to get instant informationabout like, oh, i'm making this. i'm not quite sure.
does anybody haveany recommendations? and you can. you can get informationjust instantaneously that shifts your entire process. it's so interesting. so you have two cookbooks,a catering company, you're a food writer, whatis going to be next for you? louisa shafia: i'mreally thinking about it. i feel like i'd like tobring these flavors to people
in an easier way, soi'm working right now on getting my papersin order to visit iran. and, fingers crossed, that'sgoing to come through soon. and if i do, and i'm able toactually go to the motherland, to the source ofall this, i think i'm going to go deeper intothis approach to cooking in this tradition of thingsthat come from the silk road. so i kind of feel like that'swhere i'm going, but we'll see. i don't want to jinx anythingby saying it to soon.
jaci badzin: silkroad, that's amazing. i love that thread line throughthis too, the ingredients and how you tie that in. it's really fantastic. what is on yourfood bucket list? jaci badzin: oh, boy. well, one thing ireally want to do is after i get deeperinto the iran thing is i'd love to explorethe heritage of my mom's
side, which is russian,german, and polish. and i would love to goto that part of the world and really immerse myself. and the interestingthing that i found, which was really surprisingin researching this book, is how much those twoareas have in common. because there's beencultural exchange for thousands of years,whether it be by war and conquering or just by trade.
but i found picklesand dill and raw onions and pickled fish, caviar andlots of super sour flavors all throughout eastern europe. and then, of course, intoiran and the persianate sphere of influence. so i kind of want to goto that part of the world and see what all thesimilarities are. jaci badzin: very cool. so we've got a couple morequestions left, and we're
going to open it upto the q&a portion. so if anybody hasquestions, please use the microphones thatare in the audience. so i like to wrap thingsup with a off the cuff portion, finish this sentence. so there's a few questions. i'm inspired by-- louisa shafia: yotam ottolenghi,the author-- the co-author with sammi tamimi, thecookbook "jerusalem."
i love how the twoof them have brought this really exotic flavors toa bigger audience in a really beautiful, easyto understand way. and i think they've kind ofchanged the whole dialogue about cooking here. suddenly, everybody's superinto middle eastern cooking. jaci badzin: fantastic. three things that arealways in my fridge are-- louisa shafia: peanut butter,miso paste, and tamarind pure.
jaci badzin: i don't knowif those three go together, but i bet she could makesomething very interesting with them. louisa shafia: they can. they all will kick up theflavor of a bowl of ramen. jaci badzin: that's amazing. i'm going to try that. when no one is watching, i eat-- louisa shafia: abig bowl of soup
that has peanutbutter and miso in it and all different kinds ofvegetables like winter squash and shiitakes and scallionsand ginger and carrots. jaci badzin: thatsounds really good. louisa shafia: hadit this morning. jaci badzin: if i weren'ta chef, i would be-- louisa shafia: i guess, iwould be a full-time writer. jaci badzin: i can seeyou on your way to that. louisa shafia: an academician.
i should be more exact. i guess, i would delve deeplyinto food history and really the theories and thefoundations of everything. last question. when jaci comes to my house fordinner, i'm going to make her-- louisa shafia: i am goingto make her persian rice pie, which is rice with alayer of cooked chicken, roasted chicken, andyogurt and barberries, and then another layer ofrice on top cooked to a crisp
so the top is coveredwith the golden tadig and the inside is tender. and it's comforting,it's rich, it's savory. jaci badzin: i can't wait. louisa shafia: it'sspecial occasion food. i'm going to make it for you. jaci badzin: well,thanks so much. we have a question over here. audience: hi.
first, i want us to say how i'mkind of excited to see this, because it seemed foryears that, at least in english language, it waskind of legendary cuisine. persia was the only cookbookthat really was available that i could find. louisa shafia: oh, youknow about that book? audience: yeah, totally i know. it's an awesome cookbook,but i'm excited to see more. i guess, when i think ofiran, the first thing that
comes to other people'sminds is saffron. they produce one of theworld's best saffron and i was kind ofactually surprised you can apparently what claims tobe iranian saffron here in the us, which i wouldn'thave thought was legal. but where do youthink-- where should i go to get really the bestsaffron that i can find? do1 you mean here in newyork or just in general? audience: whatever.
here in new york. let's try that. jaci badzin: let'sstart here in new york. louisa shafia: well,here in new york, i usually go to kalustyan's. audience: yeah, that'swhere i would go. jaci badzin: it's amazing. louisa shafia: but, you know,you could also-- does penzeys still have a store in new york?
penzeys, the mail-order spicecompany, did they close? oh, that's too bad, becausethey have such high quality ingredients, even thingslike sumac or saffron. i would go to them firstbecause they're really fresh and they know their sources. audience: so i guessthere's no secret places like in the iraniancommunity where they like-- louisa shafia: well,now that you've asked. you could go out togreat neck, long island,
where there's a bigcommunity of persian-jews, and there's grocery storesand there's restaurants. so you might, if you paidoff the right person, be able to get some realauthentic iranian saffron. audience: thank you. jaci badzin: nice. well, thank you somuch for coming in. this is so fantastic to getto have you here and talk about this beautiful book.
louisa shafia: thanks jaci.